Comments on: More on life isn’t always so simple

By: rain

rain — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:24:30 +0000

Oh gee!! hello Chuck and Jochen, I guess that just shows how we all read and interpret things so individually; you both saw that in such a very different way than what I wrote, I was surprized when I read your replies.
I wrote it and I like it for exactly the opposite reason than you both liked it: I like it because it DOES matter.
The monk was realising that all the good he believed in and worked for all his life, may at the end just prove to be a monstrous lie.
If we are lied to, it matters; if we are betrayed, it matters.
What the monk is saying is that if it turns out that he has been betrayed and lied to all his life, then the goodness he believed in, and the afterlife he believed in, if they turn out not to be real : then they SHOULD have been real; because if beauty, and love and goodness are just a lie, a meaningless nothing, then we are just being toyed with by that which is evil; and so if in that instance evil had won, by getting him to believe a lie all his life, then the punchline is that he himself has in the final instance overcome that blow of betrayal by staying with love anyway.
Ah well I guess that’s why God made us all different but to me it matters; not because I am less evolved than you, but because I see from a different perspective.
Peace and Light, rain.

By: Chuck Gebhardt

Chuck Gebhardt — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:16:12 +0000

Jochen, good friend, I don’t see this HL quote as arrogant in the least. I think it powerfully reinforces the message that love, in the end, is all that really matters. Our death, while seeming to be a massively important issue to us as we live, from the larger perspective it is not that big a deal.

By: Jochen

Jochen — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:10:08 +0000

I am reading this discussion in two parts for the firtst time today, loving it for its liveliness, authenticity and fun. What makes me want to post is what Gloria’s friend said, “What does it matter?”

I’m well aware that things matter very much to me, I’m not standing above anything. I too would like to make the right choices and will certainly regret those that turn out to be wrong – and I have no idea what I will do when someone threatens to shoot me or someone dear to me and I get a chance to kill him first. But what does it matter? When I do something I find myself regretting later, what does it matter? All of that is simply evidence of not yet enough “evolution”, of a very different life that is waiting for us to catch up with it. So what I can do now is take at least a dual perspective where I acknowledge that things – regret, shame, guilt etc – matter very much to me a n d don’t matter at all because everything will look different anyway behind the watershed that devides pre-love and love. (I know that no such thing really does exist, but I also know we are headed for a new world and a new life, utterly different.) What we can do now, perhaps, is take some of that weighty importance from all those things we eiter do right or wrong.

I would like to quote from a Heavenletter™, not implying that the quotation represents m y point of view which would be much more arrogant than I really am. Also, I don’t think it contains an imperative or injunction. But I feel it captures, even palpably, some of what is in store for us – beyond right and wrong, beyond sacrifice, beyond anything noble or ignoble, beyond a l l our parameters.

“The Arena of Soul”, Heavenletter™ #2136

Do not judge a soul by the clothing it wears. Stay out of the details of differentiation, and get into the arena of soul, blessed souls. Even if some are vain or cruel, see the truth of them so they may get a handle on who they are. I know this seems far-fetched to you.

Beloveds, even if someone is going to shoot you, let them shoot you while you have some love in your heart. What would you bequeath to the world – love, or hurt, resentment, fear? Do you want to give the world what it has too much of or something that it needs?

By: rain

rain — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:45:30 +0000

Joy Chuck no that doesn’t seem like a non-answer, I think it’s an enlightened answer; I too feel much better when I flow, than be stuck with any must-do or must-be, or anything that must be applied to all circumstances, I forget what my rules are supposed to be; I just try to work from the heart I guess.

Hello Gloria, what you are saying is reminding me of something I read many years ago but the gist of which has always stayed with me. I used to read these fiction books, and one particular book was about a young monk-type man being taught by an older one, and no matter the circumstances their belief and way was non-violence.

During the book the older one would teach the younger of what the afterlife was like.

At the end of the book there was some kind of war or battle in the land, horrible monsters, creatures, and people etc, and the monks stood facing the ‘enemy’ (along with other warrior-type folks and townsfolks etc) and had to just use their minds to keep on sending out love and light etc no matter what happened.

Well there’s this creature coming straight at the young monk no matter what goodness he sends to it/him, it/him just keeps right on coming; and it kills him. As he lays dying he wonders if he failed etc, and as he dies everything goes black all around him. All his life of believing and sacrificing and praying and ‘doing the right thing’. I think he is angry, sad etc but then his final thought is this:

If there is no afterlife, no place so beautiful existing as he has been taught to believe, well then, there jolly well should have been; because it was good enough, this beautiful dreamplace, this thought, if it was not real, well it should be. I think that made him laugh.

Then there in the darkness of death he felt his dead friend take his hand, and say ‘we’re here, come on’, and a light began to grow.
For me it’s that thought he had which stands out.

Peace and Light,
Rain.
Peace and Light, rain.

By: Chuck Gebhardt

Chuck Gebhardt — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:25:18 +0000

Rain, please do not worry that I may be offended. Everything you wrote makes good sense to me, and I’m not at all easily offended. I haven’t mentioned where I stand now on this life and death issue. I believe that any rule we might form about how we should act is a very limiting idea. Every circumstance is different and each of our own situations in our lives is different. Even for something as simple as sharing an egg or holding on to it, I think it is best to search our heart for the answer that fits us best in the moment. Does this seem like a non-answer?

By: Gloria

Gloria — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:50:54 +0000

So glad you’re here, Rain!

You make excellent points. Yes, we don’t really know why Carla did as she did and why she lost.

From my limited vision, I see that she lost. Perhaps from a bigger vision, I might discover that this was in actuality a victory for her. Now I can only imagine.

In the case of our being given a choice to shoot or not shoot — to kill or be killed — do we really know what is the right answer! Is there a right answer?

It has to be that non-violence is better than non-violence, yet does that extend to someone’s not defending himself? If a person runs in front of someone to save someone from being shot, and he gets killed himself, it’s different from his just standing there to be shot. There are so many angles to this question.

One more thing I have to say on behalf of Carla. She was a great cook, and she loved cooking and took pride in her cooking. She was in the contest for more than money.

Looking forward to more from you, dear Rain.

By: rain

rain — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:06:50 +0000

Hello, hope you don’t mind my adding my current thoughts to this idea :-). I think that this may be to do with levels of remembering.

I think that the original idea regarding the giving of an egg, is the moment when we forget; the person went into a competition to win the things, such as money etc., which they wanted, but as soon as someone else needs something I think they did the ‘forgetting’: they forgot all about what they were doing in the competition , and about what they thought they wanted or needed. I think they just didn’t even remember, it just didn’t matter.

A war situation is very different, a whole other level of what can be lost; losing money is so different from losing life. I guess we forget we are playing roles and start seeing ourselves as the costumes we are wearing; I guess that’s what causes wars in the first place.

I guess we all really want to do the right thing, which I think in this context may be to see through the illusion of our separateness, and that we can’t actually be harmed or killed; but that is so easy to say isn’t it for me and any of us when we are safe, and not put in that kind of position. I hope you understand what I mean Chuck and are not offended. I have not been in that kind of a war but truthfully I have to say that at this point in my life, if I was in a war I would shoot. I wish I was better than I am; that I could hold on to 24-7 the knowing we are all one, but I know that as soon as I am threatened I revert straight back to the us-and-them and start to try to defend myself.

I think regarding the souffle that the test may come in accepting the choices; if I choose my own choice, then whether it works or fails it was my choice. However, if I run a new idea through my head and decide to go with that one instead, that too is still my choice; so if it works or fails it was still my choice; the big but comes if I take in another’s idea, go with it, but blame them when it fails. Ideas come from all over, but I chose which to do. I don’t honestly think the chef winning or losing has anything to do with the chef’s assistant making any suggestion. Maybe it’s to do with the compassion of wanting someone who got knocked out earlier, to be still able to do something they still seem to need to do? There are many ways to look at this one.
Peace and Light,
rain.

Peace and Light,
rain.

By: Jacqueline

Jacqueline — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:12:53 +0000

Gloria and I had this discussion while we were walking recently: would you kill if someone was pointing a gun at you? I certainly would shoot someone if I could before that person shot me. I would theoretically aim for the gun hand, but I have never shot a real gun, just a beebee gun, so who knows whether I could aim that well under pressure.

I value my life. I do not want someone else to take it.

By: Chuck Gebhardt

Chuck Gebhardt — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:52:50 +0000

Gloria, these are fascinating topics that we could spend days just superficially covering. Santhan’s statements alone are very provocative and worthy of in depth exploration. To answer your question, above, about killing or being killed, I was faced with this same question much, much more forcefully later in my tour of duty. While I still never had to fire a weapon in the heat of a fire fight, there were occasions when I was sent through what amounted to enemy territory in an unarmored truck with only M16 rifles for me and my buddy to use to defend ourselves. It is true that I never had to answer this question, but it is also true that I fully intended to defend myself to the death and, in this situation, you do not actually have to open up fire to know that you would done so if the situation called for it. War is very different than normal day to day life, it forces a level of commitment that civilian life rarely requires. My experience in combat was the real deal, my testimony to the conscientious objector board, while being totally honest, was just speculation on my part. The stark contrast between these different scenarios is what I am trying to portray.

I just saw Pam’s post after I wrote the text above. Pam, I am completely convinced that in Vietnam if I had seen someone shooting at me I have no doubt I would have shot back. I do not know what I would do now, however, I am not the same person I was back then and I am back to speculating like I was for the testimony I mentioned. There is a lot more rich detail I could fill in to support what I am saying, but it seems that it won’t really change the underlying issues and the essence of my statements.

I love you guys…….Chuck

By: Pam (fortheloveofGodde)

Pam (fortheloveofGodde) — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:07:50 +0000

Chuck’s story certainly illustrates for me the difference in how we THINK we would act and how we would ACTUALLY react. He did pick up the gun, but would he have shot someone? He was skilled at shooting targets, we know he knew how to aim and hit what he was aiming for–the question is would he have been able to actually shoot someone else to save his own life? Only Chuck knows for sure. I have the same belief system, I would have taken the same steps as Chuck in seeking status as conscientious objector. I also believe I, too, would have picked up that gun in the same circumstances. Had I looked at someone face-to-face pointing a gun at me, would I have tried to shoot first? I don’t know and I hope I don’t ever have to find out.